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Poster: scott brown Date: Nov 27, 2003 10:19pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: It would seem brewster is back ... mp3 disscussion time?

i don't see what there is to discuss

if archive.org converts stuff to mp3 or hosts shows in mp3, i'll never upload again and ask that shows i taped are removed.

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Poster: Ethan P. Date: Nov 28, 2003 1:26pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: It would seem brewster is back ... mp3 disscussion time?

.

This post was modified by Ethan P. on 2003-11-28 21:26:14

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Poster: thoman8r Date: Nov 28, 2003 6:26am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: It would seem brewster is back ... mp3 disscussion time?

May I point out also, that worse that having mp3s around, is that many concerts are only available from a MiniDisc source. Supporting them and boycotting mp3 would be extremely hypocritical.

I don't think you really understand the issue here. It's about avoiding the degradation of already existing sources. It's not about only allowing certain sources onto the archive.

If somebody records a show to MD (or analog cassette) and wants to post it to the archive, I'm all for it. Not everybody has the money to use DAT's or laptops.

However, say somebody taped a show to DAT and a MD taper patched out of that person. Or at some point in post-production the show was converted to MD. If the DAT source is available on the archive, the MD version of the same source has no business being here.

Do you see how this is different from the example you gave, and how this directly relates to mp3s?

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or Staffakb Date: Nov 28, 2003 8:46am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: It would seem brewster is back ... mp3 disscussion time?

What about his points about the Open Source Audio and Net Labels collections already having a significant amount of lossy content hosted here? With the closure and destruction of the content on mp3.com that amount is likely to increase significantly.

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Poster: thoman8r Date: Nov 28, 2003 4:06pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: It would seem brewster is back ... mp3 disscussion time?

I really don't concern myself with other sections of archive.org. I am only concerned with the Live Music Archive, which was founded on the principles of the etree.org community which sought (and continues to seek) the proliferation of high quality sources throughout the community.

You can do whatever you want in the rest of the archive.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or Staffakb Date: Nov 29, 2003 2:17am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: It would seem brewster is back ... mp3 disscussion time?

The only difference between audio in the LMA and the rest of the site is one field in the database. So, as far as your concerned lossy audio is fine as long as its on a different part of the site?

It sounds like there's plenty of room for compromise there.

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Poster: thoman8r Date: Nov 29, 2003 2:37am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: It would seem brewster is back ... mp3 disscussion time?

The only difference between audio in the LMA and the rest of the site is one field in the database. So, as far as your concerned lossy audio is fine as long as its on a different part of the site?

The scope of this discussion is the Live Music Archive, not any other part of the archive. Like I said, I do not concern myself with the rest of the archive as I do not use it, so I don't really have an opinion on what formats they use.

It sounds like there's plenty of room for compromise there.

I don't think I really understand what you mean. Are you suggesting a compromise would be allowing mp3s on other parts of the archive but not the LMA? Obviously I would be ok with that, but I don't think that's really germane to this discussion. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you though?

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or Staffakb Date: Nov 29, 2003 3:10am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: It would seem brewster is back ... mp3 disscussion time?

My interest is in listening to the music in a reasonable amount of time. I don't really care which part of the IA website the music resides on. It sounds like you do care which part of the website lossless only music resides on, namely the LMA part of the website.

From that a workable compromise sounds like when people upload a lossless piece of audio they are given the choice of whether a lossy version may be hosted with it. If they indicate that its acceptable for a lossy version to be made the listing for it will not appear in the LMA part of the website.

Does that clear up what I was driving at?

Now, whether this is acceptable to the community as a whole is another question.

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Poster: thoman8r Date: Nov 29, 2003 3:42am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: It would seem brewster is back ... mp3 disscussion time?

Does that clear up what I was driving at?

I understand what your driving at but I don't agree. What I was referring to is the part of the audio archive that hosts audio that is not live concerts. Hosting full shows or even entire songs in mp3 in any part of the archive is not cool with me. A duck is still a duck by any other name.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or Staffakb Date: Nov 29, 2003 3:58am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: It would seem brewster is back ... mp3 disscussion time?

Well I'm glad I kept asking so I could figure out what your position is and make sure that I was not misunderstood.

So, you would leave if a live music concert in a lossy format were uploaded to the OSA part of the website and the IA did not remove it? Given the open publishing policy of that section I can't help but imagine that it is inevitable that that occur, espcially in light of the situation at mp3.com.

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Poster: thoman8r Date: Nov 29, 2003 4:41am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: It would seem brewster is back ... mp3 disscussion time?

So, you would leave if a live music concert in a lossy format were uploaded to the OSA part of the website and the IA did not remove it?

I'm not going to directly respond to your question because I doubt archive.org intended for the OSA to become a way to circumvent the policies of its other audio sections, and have to believe that they would take measures to prevent that from happening.

Let me be as clear as possible: I don't want any live concerts or individual songs made available in mp3 on this site unless an artist has a policy of MANDATORY mp3 inclusion for their stuff to be made available here. Not my stuff, not anyone elses.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffInfiniteOhms Date: Nov 30, 2003 2:33am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: ... mp3 disscussion ... could we vote on this?

I as a taper dont realy mind if my stuff is converted to MP3, BUT i am willing to throw in my vote against mp3, because if it where to go through i suspect them more then half (possibly more) of the tapers that currently upload to this site will just plain stop.

By the way, could this be a voting situation? Or is it more like the admins will decide despite public outcry or no?

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Poster: nmculbreth Date: Nov 28, 2003 12:11pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: It would seem brewster is back ... mp3 disscussion time?

i agree if the archive starts to convert tapes to mp3 - mine or anyone elses - i'll look to share my tapes elsewhere and ask that they never be uploaded to the here. i'd be fine w/ a few sample tracks in mp3 or some 30 second previews clips but that is as far as i think the archive should go.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or Staffakb Date: Nov 28, 2003 2:18am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: It would seem brewster is back ... mp3 disscussion time?

Out of curiousity does this mean you would leave if the IA converted other people's stuff or just your own? Say that people were given the option of not having their shows transcoded to other formats.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Nov 28, 2003 6:40am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: ISO mp3 common ground

In the same vein Scott, what would your reaction be if some artists specified that they *wanted* a supplementary mp3 choice (the innocent query that actually started off the last thread?)

How would your reaction differ if those were a) band(s) you tape, b) bands you don't tape, c) mixture?

Essay question, probing for the "common ground" thing... :)

Other tapers may also submit essays. ;)

This post was modified by hamilton on 2003-11-28 14:40:44

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Poster: thoman8r Date: Nov 28, 2003 6:43am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: ISO mp3 common ground

what would your reaction be if some artists specified that they *wanted* a supplementary mp3 choice (the innocent query that actually started off the last thread?)

If an artist I taped approached me and asked me to convert a show or song I taped of theirs to mp3 I would do it. I have done it, in fact. So if an artist said to the archive, there MUST be a supplemental mp3 version of every show made available, there's not much I can say to that. We all have to abide by the artists' taping policies, after all.

However, if an artist simply doesn't care whether their songs are in mp3 or not, to me this is different and I would not be ok with me to have my shows available in mp3. In fact I'm not really cool with having any mp3 recordings hosted. What you need to understand that for a lot of these artists, the community of tapers and traders have spent a lot of time and effort making sure only the best and most pure sources are available for ALL the artist's taped shows, not just the shows we ourselves taped.

How would your reaction differ if those were a) band(s) you tape, b) bands you don't tape, c) mixture?

I just think the whole mp3 thing sets a dangerous precedent, and unless an artist makes a requirement for MP3s - which I can't imagine too many would - I wouldn't want them on the archive as full songs or shows.

I would be cool with 15 second or 30 second mp3 clips so people could hear how a show sounds though.

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Poster: dgrayshn Date: Nov 28, 2003 7:09am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: ISO mp3 common ground

I agree with Scott in as far as if whole shows are hosted here on archive in mp3 I would stop uploading my sources and request that any shows I recorded were removed and even request that an *artist* was removed that I work for.

The only room for compromise from my view is a short mp3 sample (never a full track) of a show to give the fan/downloader an idea of what they are getting.. its also pointless to start talking about alternate compressed formats in place of mp3 like ogg.

I think if we start having (as an example) half the artists with mp3's and SHN/Flac and the other half with just SHN/Flac that is just asking for a lot of trouble and is sending a totally mixed message.

Frankly the mp3 show for the Minutemen is already sending a mixed message and I wonder why that has even been allowed??

-matt c

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Nov 28, 2003 7:36am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: ISO mp3 common ground

if whole shows are hosted here on archive in mp3 I would stop uploading

Matt, to explore your view point, may I ask: If a band such as Jimmie's Chicken Shack (which I gather you don't tape) specifically requested companion mp3s be here, would that example cause you to stop?

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Poster: dgrayshn Date: Nov 28, 2003 8:37am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: ISO mp3 common ground

yeah it would cause me to stop and it would cause a LOT of other tapers to stop too..

samples yes.. full shows out of the question..

thats the way i see it..